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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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yes it's the skeptics are an episode

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number 174 the twenty first of January

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2012 Richard Saunders here with you from

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a very soggy gray drizzly rainy look up

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your thesaurus they here in the Bay Area

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in California the San Francisco Bay Area

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I'm in the USA for a couple of weeks to

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visit family and friends and hopefully

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score some nice reports and interviews

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for the skeptic zone but on this wig

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show before i left australia I caught up

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with Ian Bryce the chief investigator of

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Australian skeptics now he's been

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looking into a new sort of claim about

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cold fusion I yes remember cold fusion

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way back in the 80s I think it was well

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it seems that there is a ax and now the

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cold fusion device doing the rounds as

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it were this is the device called the

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e-cat ecat invented by somebody called

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andrea rossi in italy now there's an

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australian distributor hoping to tell us

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all the benefits of this wonderful

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device and Ian Bryce on behalf of dick

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smith who is a patron of Australian

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skeptics went up to the little town of

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mullein Bimby up in northern New South

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Wales to attend to talk all about this

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amazing device what did Ian discover to

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find out soon at the top of the show and

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following that we have a radio interview

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from 4 BC radio 4 BC in Queensland where

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the hosts interviewed very dear friend

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of the skeptic stone Loretta Marin also

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known as the jellybean lady now Loretta

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is the only person in history of

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Australian skeptics sub / 31 years who

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has been awarded skeptic of the Year

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twice yes in 2007 and 2011 and you'll

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find out why we

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loretta in such high regard during the

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interview on radio 4 BC I don't know if

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you can hear the rain falling outside

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but sort of trickling down the gutter

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and big drops in this very cold outside

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nice and crispy cold I'm just flown out

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of Sydney of course which is muggy muggy

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humid and hot now it's cold and wet here

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are the joys of international travel and

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speaking of traveling the skeptic zones

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very own dr. Richie will be travelling

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to Canberra Canberra the capital of

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Australia and she'll be there on

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Wednesday the fifteenth of februari to

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give a talk at the optus lecture theatre

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which is at the CSIRO discovery science

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center clooney's ross street and in

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canberra she's going to be giving a talk

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which is free by the way free admission

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free free free diagnosis by dr. google

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that date again is Wednesday the

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fifteenth of februari starting at 6pm

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now if you go to ww skeptics on TV and

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click the link on the show notes you can

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find out more about Reggie's visit to

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Canberra if you're in the AC T or near

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it why not go along and see dr. H E and

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hit her talk in person and you can also

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visit the website of Canberra skeptics

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which is pretty easy to remember ww

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Canberra skeptic so are GE you thank you

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to those listeners who in the past week

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have been chipping in to help our dear

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friend and report am a nard get to the

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amazing meeting in Las Vegas I'm just

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looking on the website now looking at

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Maynard's thermometer the total of the

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money raised and yes it's sort of

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creeping up towards her nor must be

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nearly 1500 by now of course our goal is

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2500 so we're getting there we are

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definitely getting there and I can't

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wait to hear the reports that Maynard

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will be able to bring us all when he

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gets to Lhasa

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yes we're flying may nod to Las Vegas

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yeah I've never flown somebody's Las

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Vegas before I hope I get to go to

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anyway if you feel like helping out

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please do please do i'm sure we'll get

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da we'll get to how goal and you can

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visit the skeptics on website of course

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and click the donate button for me nod

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and i must say thank you to our dr. Phil

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Plait who was on last week's show he

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helped us set a new record for the

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skeptic zone his show which was episode

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number 169 has almost twice as many

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downloads as our previous record Thank

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You Phil Plait and welcome to all the

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new listeners to the skeptic zone we've

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had so many guests over the three years

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or so the skeptic zones been going so

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many interesting reports but you can see

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a huge list of those at skeptics own TV

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click the download comments link and you

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can see a list of all the past skeptic

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zone episodes waiting waiting for you to

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hear them well as I hear more rain out

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the window let me have a look oh yes

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gray overcast David there you go I'm

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going to run upstairs i'm going to have

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what can I have a hot drink of what what

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do you have a hot drink off when you're

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in in san francisco bay area mmm what

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the hell hot chocolate oh yes while you

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now listeners a couple of weeks ago you

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may well remember I went for a walk with

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my good friend and chief investigator on

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from the Australian skeptics Ian Bryce

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and we're walking the dogs in fact and

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we were discussing the interesting

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things regarding negatively positive

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ions well Ian Bryce is back with us

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today to discuss more interesting things

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this time the the hope and the promise

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of cheap and hardly polluting type

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energy hello Ian hello Richard now you

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went on a mission you want to on a

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mission for our founder mr. dick smith

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who was very famous here in Australia

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for the founding of the Australian

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skeptics and the dick smith electronics

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chain and Dick Smith foods and he's

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flown around the world in a helicopter

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and had many records with his

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adventuring but he was approached I

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believe to fund a new type of engine yes

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dicks known for his support for

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environmental and humanitarian projects

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so of course a new form of energy that

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was antifreeze from climate change would

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be a most amazing thing so your dogs are

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green they're outside right yes pardon

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the dogs so in this case dick was a bit

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surprised to be approached by this by

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this representing representative looking

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for money for Rossi's so-called ecat

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machine are you cat is EC 80 right

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energy catalyzer energy is now yes you

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can easily find that on the web if you

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do a Google and the main difference from

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all the other things that the skeptics

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have investigated is that there's no

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less than eight scientists who have come

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out giving some support for this device

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where's most of the other things we've

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investigated like homeopathy and the

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anti-vaccination group and the our band

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bracelets yes you don't find any

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scientific support at all right so given

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that there's some scientific support for

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this

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dick thought the skeptic should look

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into it so I went along to them the

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meeting we meeting in northern Australia

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or northern New South Wales in fact just

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a few days ago you flew up to the little

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little township of Marlon bimby

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mullumbimby which is near byron bay and

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just as a side note i grew up in milan

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min herre about how about that i spent

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most of my school years in mummys on I

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remember that very well which is very

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strange when I think about it because it

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really is just a little country town

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it's a lovely little country town but

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it's just a little country town it's not

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the place i would think that um would be

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used to drop interest in some type of

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technology that could potentially change

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the world i guess but what they have is

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retired money is surprisingly large

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number of wealthy people there who have

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written who have retired or prepared

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prefer a living style that's away from

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the big smoke among the beautiful

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rolling hills and hinterland there yes

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yes and there have been quite a few

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different schemes and scams associated

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with the area and it's well known for

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people who politely you could say people

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who feel very much in tune with the

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earth in fact I got some brochures when

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I was up there there's the fist deal

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with earth frequencies coming up

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relative frequency so ask them what that

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was a better man referred me to Nikola

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Tesla his experiments report yes rican

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so he'd be rotating in his grave if he

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knew all the time people bring up his

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name but well I remember a dead area of

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Australia northern New South Wales um

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it's it was a big center in the in the

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early 70s especially for the hippie

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culture I remain and still is and still

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is yes yes in fact my host drove me

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around in a 1988 car painted with

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flowers and love and peace times they

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fancy surviving from those days well and

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we've got a good idea of the demographic

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there I I gave an outline of the

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skeptics when when I got to give my

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presentation and the things they've

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investigated recently we mentioned that

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power band and those things and when I

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got to the anti-vaccination the

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Australian vaccination that rep it

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really anti-vaccination should have

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heard the hurts from the audience and

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someone walked out what Evans have been

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able to tolerate that so you were flown

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up there on behalf of Dick Smith to

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check out the bona fide ease of this

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this ecat and you were given the chance

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to actually address the the meeting

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which is I think that was a very good

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that you were given that chance I must

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say yes that was quite courteous of my

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host the Australian the prospective

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representative to allow me to share the

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table with him and and give my point of

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view it's quite open although he did get

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a bit worried as it went on and well I

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was just about to come to that as it

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happened and I've looked at your notes

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from the presentation you gave maybe he

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would have been somewhat disappointed by

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your presentation because it wasn't

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glowing was it that's right yes he he

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and a lot of his colleagues were saying

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things like come on just investment what

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he worried about we've got at least

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scientists saying it's okay we're over

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that we want to work out the finances

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yeah and this guy had a quite a scheme

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set up for his nonprofit organization

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which seem to be handling a lot of money

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in his business plan for a nonprofit

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organization and there were profits to

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be made left right and centre we were

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assured so I put the bit of a break on

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it and and when it was my time to speak

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I said we'll hang on a bit let's slow

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down and take a step backward from all

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this let's firstly find out whether it's

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true yes before we start working out the

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business plan and the investment

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strategy if this engine is true as

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claimed he and it we're and we're not

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joking about here it would seriously

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revolutionize our society wouldn't it it

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totally would a totally new field of

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physics and energy production climate

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change would be solved overnight and

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everything standard could go on climbing

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yes we produce more goods and recycle

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more goods very easily yeah so it really

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is a bold claim that these people will

271
00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:11,020
make yes yes on the other hand so that's

272
00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:13,630
one reason that dick wanted to invest in

273
00:13:16,710 --> 00:13:15,250
it if it's going to be of such benefit

274
00:13:18,660 --> 00:13:16,720
to mankind we'd all like to be

275
00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:18,670
of it but the other side of the coin was

276
00:13:22,889 --> 00:13:20,529
that if it turns out to be a scam to be

277
00:13:24,300 --> 00:13:22,899
false and we don't want people wasting

278
00:13:26,249 --> 00:13:24,310
their money on it that money could

279
00:13:29,129 --> 00:13:26,259
otherwise been invested in things that

280
00:13:32,009 --> 00:13:29,139
are known to benefit humanity and save

281
00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:32,019
the climate for example good old bog

282
00:13:36,809 --> 00:13:35,410
standard solar power good yeah if

283
00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:36,819
there's a replicator ways of energy

284
00:13:42,569 --> 00:13:39,689
storage overnight you say but more

285
00:13:44,460 --> 00:13:42,579
advancement of the of the technologies

286
00:13:46,710 --> 00:13:44,470
involved in solar energy so year by year

287
00:13:49,650 --> 00:13:46,720
I imagine where winkling better

288
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:49,660
efficiency out of these cells but if

289
00:13:53,220 --> 00:13:51,279
you're going to spend millions on this

290
00:13:54,629 --> 00:13:53,230
scheme that turns out to be wasted to be

291
00:13:56,639 --> 00:13:54,639
better off spending the millions

292
00:13:59,790 --> 00:13:56,649
unimproved what's going to work yeah

293
00:14:02,189 --> 00:13:59,800
yeah so these motivations they dick to

294
00:14:03,389 --> 00:14:02,199
ask me to go and assess the situation up

295
00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:03,399
there and I please they've got the

296
00:14:08,490 --> 00:14:06,850
chance to address them as well so I've

297
00:14:11,340 --> 00:14:08,500
developed a little scientific tool

298
00:14:13,710 --> 00:14:11,350
called the three-legged stool test yes I

299
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:13,720
shall use this is a I made a little note

300
00:14:20,189 --> 00:14:15,040
to ask you about that because I do

301
00:14:22,470 --> 00:14:20,199
remember how many years ago in 2004 i

302
00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:22,480
think it was at a convention that in

303
00:14:26,309 --> 00:14:24,430
here in sydney you you spoke about the

304
00:14:27,780 --> 00:14:26,319
three-legged stool and i remember

305
00:14:30,869 --> 00:14:27,790
thinking at the time it was a very good

306
00:14:33,299 --> 00:14:30,879
little benchmark for when you're

307
00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:33,309
investigating something especially free

308
00:14:38,220 --> 00:14:36,370
energy devices so for the benefit out of

309
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:38,230
our listeners who are sitting on their

310
00:14:42,119 --> 00:14:40,480
four-legged chairs could the moment or

311
00:14:44,699 --> 00:14:42,129
whatever they're doing how does the

312
00:14:46,619 --> 00:14:44,709
three-legged stool work well it says

313
00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:46,629
that if you're assessing some new claim

314
00:14:50,999 --> 00:14:48,430
regarding a new type of science or

315
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:51,009
technology or health care or something

316
00:14:55,139 --> 00:14:53,199
like that there's three tests you should

317
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:55,149
give it one is there a theory that makes

318
00:15:00,119 --> 00:14:58,720
it possible at least right and two are

319
00:15:02,579 --> 00:15:00,129
their measurements that show that is

320
00:15:03,660 --> 00:15:02,589
actually happening and three does the

321
00:15:05,699 --> 00:15:03,670
claimant have any sort of creb

322
00:15:07,889 --> 00:15:05,709
credibility that should that you should

323
00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:07,899
believe what they're saying so we went

324
00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:09,490
through this case according to those

325
00:15:14,929 --> 00:15:12,970
three categories and basically found out

326
00:15:17,699 --> 00:15:14,939
that it's falling short on all of those

327
00:15:19,049 --> 00:15:17,709
so to cut it short therefore I

328
00:15:20,940 --> 00:15:19,059
recommended the dick that he doesn't

329
00:15:23,340 --> 00:15:20,950
invest in this run

330
00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:23,350
and that that end you could no doubt be

331
00:15:26,820 --> 00:15:25,180
used to feel the plane that's just

332
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:26,830
flying overhead which is exciting the

333
00:15:32,220 --> 00:15:28,240
dogs is all happening here at Ian's

334
00:15:34,380 --> 00:15:32,230
place everybody oh there we go it's it's

335
00:15:35,940 --> 00:15:34,390
gone away so yes this is it's great

336
00:15:38,370 --> 00:15:35,950
because you look at three the three

337
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,380
major points and I think I love the way

338
00:15:42,090 --> 00:15:40,480
you put it if one of the legs isn't

339
00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:42,100
working the stools going to fall

340
00:15:46,380 --> 00:15:44,170
probably all over right and if it's got

341
00:15:48,510 --> 00:15:46,390
three broken legs then it's probably not

342
00:15:52,590 --> 00:15:48,520
even worth considering further yeah yeah

343
00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:52,600
so how in this situation how did the

344
00:15:57,150 --> 00:15:54,970
three legs stack up or not well we can

345
00:15:58,470 --> 00:15:57,160
go through them in a bit more detail the

346
00:16:01,170 --> 00:15:58,480
first one is the credibility looking at

347
00:16:03,180 --> 00:16:01,180
Rossi's history now this is the the guy

348
00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:03,190
usually is the guy initially enter yes

349
00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:07,300
the local representative doesn't have

350
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:09,070
any knowledge really of whether it's

351
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:10,930
valid or not so let's turn our focus to

352
00:16:17,730 --> 00:16:14,800
the Italian origin of it yeah so andrea

353
00:16:20,490 --> 00:16:17,740
rossi has been imprisoned twice for

354
00:16:22,950 --> 00:16:20,500
various charges to do with environmental

355
00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:22,960
fraud he's got a he's had a previous

356
00:16:30,210 --> 00:16:25,890
invention called a thermoelectric

357
00:16:32,340 --> 00:16:30,220
generator which he sold 29 devices for

358
00:16:36,230 --> 00:16:32,350
evaluation and none of them worked here

359
00:16:39,060 --> 00:16:36,240
not a very good record he has apparently

360
00:16:41,040 --> 00:16:39,070
stated false academic credentials which

361
00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:41,050
he doesn't have caused himself a

362
00:16:47,790 --> 00:16:43,330
physicist when his only degree is in

363
00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:47,800
philosophy and lots of problems like

364
00:16:53,070 --> 00:16:50,530
that so that's not a showstopper

365
00:16:55,140 --> 00:16:53,080
basically I agreed isn't it doesn't bode

366
00:16:57,660 --> 00:16:55,150
well it doesn't mean he can't even avert

367
00:16:59,640 --> 00:16:57,670
invented something wonderful but it's

368
00:17:02,820 --> 00:16:59,650
not a good start one might say exactly

369
00:17:05,100 --> 00:17:02,830
the second way is the theory Rossi's

370
00:17:07,319 --> 00:17:05,110
basing it on he thinks it's cold fusion

371
00:17:08,790 --> 00:17:07,329
or says it's cold fusion which will

372
00:17:10,650 --> 00:17:08,800
remember back in the 1980s with

373
00:17:13,579 --> 00:17:10,660
Fleischmann and pons year has never been

374
00:17:17,189 --> 00:17:13,589
reproduced that long ago 90 yes indeed

375
00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:17,199
so since then the field has been renamed

376
00:17:23,490 --> 00:17:20,850
low energy nuclear reactions le NR and

377
00:17:25,140 --> 00:17:23,500
broadened and this quite a body of

378
00:17:28,230 --> 00:17:25,150
research in it now very much on the

379
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:28,240
fringes of science yeah is it is there

380
00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:29,490
such a thing well no one's actually

381
00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:33,190
shown that there is and the theory is

382
00:17:40,940 --> 00:17:34,450
based on

383
00:17:43,379 --> 00:17:40,950
quantum theory of condensed matter and

384
00:17:45,509 --> 00:17:43,389
electrons that have become very heavy so

385
00:17:47,129 --> 00:17:45,519
they can orbit closer to the nucleus of

386
00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:47,139
a hydrogen atom and this has never been

387
00:17:52,470 --> 00:17:50,470
observed and it's doubtful that it

388
00:17:53,639 --> 00:17:52,480
exists at all but there is a field of

389
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:53,649
study there and there are published

390
00:18:00,360 --> 00:17:57,610
papers on it however Rossi's been able

391
00:18:01,950 --> 00:18:00,370
to get any of his own papers published

392
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:01,960
in any scientific journal so he created

393
00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:04,480
his own so-called scientific journal the

394
00:18:09,450 --> 00:18:06,370
Journal of nuclear physics mm-hm and

395
00:18:11,430 --> 00:18:09,460
he's the only one who writes trip that's

396
00:18:14,430 --> 00:18:11,440
a bit odd maybe he peer reviewed it

397
00:18:16,769 --> 00:18:14,440
himself so there's no theory to support

398
00:18:18,779 --> 00:18:16,779
it right what we do find that and the

399
00:18:20,549 --> 00:18:18,789
third leg of the stool his experiments

400
00:18:22,350 --> 00:18:20,559
and misses there's a fair bit more

401
00:18:24,060 --> 00:18:22,360
detail available on the experiments than

402
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:24,070
the other areas so I went through the

403
00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:26,950
claimed about five different

404
00:18:34,169 --> 00:18:29,529
demonstrations during 2011 that he's

405
00:18:36,539 --> 00:18:34,179
reported and in each of those we find

406
00:18:39,269 --> 00:18:36,549
out the physic considerable doubt about

407
00:18:43,789 --> 00:18:39,279
the measurements uh-huh for example

408
00:18:45,419 --> 00:18:43,799
there was one case where his

409
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:45,429
demonstration was observed by two

410
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:49,330
Swedish nuclear physicists rias's quite

411
00:18:54,269 --> 00:18:51,370
remarkable and they both they jointly

412
00:18:58,889 --> 00:18:54,279
published a travel report which said

413
00:19:00,330 --> 00:18:58,899
that the results as they saw them tend

414
00:19:02,519 --> 00:19:00,340
to support the idea that there was a

415
00:19:04,529 --> 00:19:02,529
production of energy going on more than

416
00:19:07,350 --> 00:19:04,539
you could hear from chemical reaction so

417
00:19:09,060 --> 00:19:07,360
this is one of the groups of scientists

418
00:19:10,860 --> 00:19:09,070
that give some support to it in fact one

419
00:19:12,269 --> 00:19:10,870
of them used to be the chairman of the

420
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:12,279
Swedish skeptics which is a sister

421
00:19:17,820 --> 00:19:14,799
organization to Australians kept here so

422
00:19:20,549 --> 00:19:17,830
we hold his opinion in high regard of

423
00:19:22,470 --> 00:19:20,559
course so what I looked at was i

424
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:22,480
reverse-engineered the charts that were

425
00:19:28,950 --> 00:19:27,010
provided by Rossi and carried it to

426
00:19:31,529 --> 00:19:28,960
another level of analysis not taking it

427
00:19:33,810 --> 00:19:31,539
at face value and given the temperature

428
00:19:35,070 --> 00:19:33,820
reports of Rossi's reactor perhaps I

429
00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:35,080
should stop for a moment and describe

430
00:19:39,690 --> 00:19:36,760
what's happening Rossi's gotta yes how

431
00:19:41,779 --> 00:19:39,700
does the machinist seem to work in ok

432
00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:41,789
well the basic device is an l-shaped

433
00:19:45,570 --> 00:19:44,350
copper device it looks like a set of

434
00:19:48,029 --> 00:19:45,580
plumbing that you ordered from the

435
00:19:48,630 --> 00:19:48,039
hardware store together with them torch

436
00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:48,640
yeah

437
00:19:53,370 --> 00:19:51,310
and it's not very big is it that's right

438
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:53,380
there's big as a shoe box my first

439
00:19:57,060 --> 00:19:55,210
branch contains a little so-called

440
00:19:59,520 --> 00:19:57,070
nuclear reactor with nipple powder a

441
00:20:00,930 --> 00:19:59,530
nickel flakes and hydrogen in it and an

442
00:20:03,390 --> 00:20:00,940
unknown catalyst which is supposed to

443
00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:03,400
react once you warm it up the water

444
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:04,870
flows down oven gets hot then as a

445
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:06,490
vertical chimney his purpose is to

446
00:20:12,150 --> 00:20:08,530
collect the steam and that goes out a

447
00:20:15,030 --> 00:20:12,160
hose so in the end it will this machine

448
00:20:17,790 --> 00:20:15,040
is designed to generate steam to drive a

449
00:20:19,110 --> 00:20:17,800
turbine and yes the power here it's a

450
00:20:20,610 --> 00:20:19,120
bit of a mystery why rusty has never

451
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:20,620
harnessed the steam coming out for any

452
00:20:25,650 --> 00:20:23,050
useful purpose which means that you have

453
00:20:27,660 --> 00:20:25,660
to do the efficiency calculation based

454
00:20:30,390 --> 00:20:27,670
on 2 and like things which is always a

455
00:20:32,930 --> 00:20:30,400
bad sign right does cold water going in

456
00:20:35,940 --> 00:20:32,940
and there's some steam coming out ok so

457
00:20:37,410 --> 00:20:35,950
in this case there's a couple of

458
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:37,420
problems with the experiment and one is

459
00:20:43,830 --> 00:20:40,450
the thing looking at the temperature of

460
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:43,840
the water coming out over time which the

461
00:20:50,970 --> 00:20:47,410
data has been provided in full to me

462
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:50,980
indicates that has not so much in

463
00:20:54,690 --> 00:20:53,170
accordance with the nuclear reaction as

464
00:20:56,310 --> 00:20:54,700
it is with something else because for

465
00:20:59,220 --> 00:20:56,320
example there's 300 watts of electrical

466
00:21:00,540 --> 00:20:59,230
power going in at the start and the rate

467
00:21:03,210 --> 00:21:00,550
that the device is heating up at

468
00:21:04,890 --> 00:21:03,220
indicates that there 750 watts being

469
00:21:07,020 --> 00:21:04,900
dissipated in the device from the start

470
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:07,030
hmm this is before the nuclear reaction

471
00:21:12,510 --> 00:21:10,330
kicks in while it's still cold so that's

472
00:21:14,850 --> 00:21:12,520
750 watts not 300 watts bit of a puzzle

473
00:21:16,230 --> 00:21:14,860
yeah and if it was a pure nuclear

474
00:21:19,470 --> 00:21:16,240
reaction that must already have kicked

475
00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:19,480
in at only 28 degrees C hasn't be quite

476
00:21:24,900 --> 00:21:23,050
scary because it means your reactants

477
00:21:26,370 --> 00:21:24,910
could start reacting at room temperature

478
00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:26,380
on holiday that should be rid of a

479
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:30,850
Warren another thing is that that after

480
00:21:35,580 --> 00:21:33,370
a while the power suddenly goes up to

481
00:21:38,510 --> 00:21:35,590
the apparent power goes up to seventeen

482
00:21:41,370 --> 00:21:38,520
hundred Watts from 750 more than double

483
00:21:44,010 --> 00:21:41,380
instantly yeah change in slope of that

484
00:21:45,360 --> 00:21:44,020
at the temperature curve and this is

485
00:21:46,980 --> 00:21:45,370
very odd that a nuclear reaction would

486
00:21:50,430 --> 00:21:46,990
kick in so suddenly and double so

487
00:21:53,490 --> 00:21:50,440
suddenly in a bit later on the device

488
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:53,500
cools down for 20 seconds I saw that in

489
00:21:57,870 --> 00:21:56,050
your chart yes is this a strange dip is

490
00:21:59,160 --> 00:21:57,880
now that's right that's bit odd to think

491
00:22:01,200 --> 00:21:59,170
that a nuclear reaction would suddenly

492
00:22:02,130 --> 00:22:01,210
decide is going to stop wait for 20

493
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:02,140
seconds and resume

494
00:22:05,990 --> 00:22:04,240
at a higher level even though the it had

495
00:22:09,270 --> 00:22:06,000
cooled down in the meantime yeah right

496
00:22:11,390 --> 00:22:09,280
so that the theory the hypothesis that a

497
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:11,400
real nuclear reaction looks very

498
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:14,410
doubtful to me and to me it's more

499
00:22:19,830 --> 00:22:17,530
suggestive of someone fiddling with the

500
00:22:22,110 --> 00:22:19,840
electrical input if for example they

501
00:22:24,030 --> 00:22:22,120
started off with 750 watts not the state

502
00:22:27,120 --> 00:22:24,040
of 300 left it there for a couple of

503
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:27,130
hours then connected it to a higher

504
00:22:33,150 --> 00:22:30,370
voltage so it produced more power 1700

505
00:22:35,460 --> 00:22:33,160
and then for 20 seconds they

506
00:22:37,410 --> 00:22:35,470
disconnected it from bad voltage supply

507
00:22:39,870 --> 00:22:37,420
reconnected it to a high voltage supply

508
00:22:41,820 --> 00:22:39,880
again that would fit the data much more

509
00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:41,830
better yeah I think so i'd say the

510
00:22:46,020 --> 00:22:44,260
alternative hypothesis is better

511
00:22:47,670 --> 00:22:46,030
supported than the nuclear reaction one

512
00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:47,680
who have its own in my opinion and I'm

513
00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:49,570
us with a disclaimer that if more data

514
00:22:55,830 --> 00:22:52,390
comes well then I can always change that

515
00:22:57,660 --> 00:22:55,840
view so it sounds to me though if for

516
00:23:00,450 --> 00:22:57,670
the sake of argument is think this guy

517
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:00,460
has invented something which is works as

518
00:23:05,070 --> 00:23:02,530
he claimed it would be really really

519
00:23:07,260 --> 00:23:05,080
dangerous don't you think but you

520
00:23:08,820 --> 00:23:07,270
haven't heard Harvard epogen yeah this

521
00:23:10,020 --> 00:23:08,830
is a little device right the next

522
00:23:13,110 --> 00:23:10,030
demonstration was on a much bigger

523
00:23:14,790 --> 00:23:13,120
device you weighed 98 kilograms oh wow

524
00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:14,800
instead of four kilograms it's more than

525
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:18,130
me but why you love me that's right I'm

526
00:23:21,690 --> 00:23:20,110
not going to believe this but if you to

527
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:21,700
believe what he told the observers

528
00:23:25,950 --> 00:23:24,610
reported he turned on the heating device

529
00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:25,960
which is supposed to start the nuclear

530
00:23:30,060 --> 00:23:27,730
reaction two hours before it filled up

531
00:23:31,260 --> 00:23:30,070
with water so he's got the electrical

532
00:23:33,150 --> 00:23:31,270
heating going on while the water is

533
00:23:35,550 --> 00:23:33,160
being pumped into the chamber to imagine

534
00:23:38,220 --> 00:23:35,560
starting your car engine and taking two

535
00:23:41,340 --> 00:23:38,230
hours to fill a radiator it would cook

536
00:23:43,410 --> 00:23:41,350
and fry it very popular and if you and

537
00:23:46,110 --> 00:23:43,420
given the Rossi's claiming there's a

538
00:23:47,250 --> 00:23:46,120
nuclear reaction there imagine can you

539
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:47,260
remember what happened to Three Mile

540
00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:49,120
Island and sure noble you're not good

541
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:50,950
for kushina when they ran out of cooling

542
00:23:55,890 --> 00:23:54,130
water and it wasn't good not good so if

543
00:23:57,270 --> 00:23:55,900
this is really a nuclear reaction i'd be

544
00:23:58,920 --> 00:23:57,280
really a little bit worried about

545
00:24:01,050 --> 00:23:58,930
prossies approach to the whole thing and

546
00:24:03,930 --> 00:24:01,060
i was interested to seeing your note

547
00:24:06,050 --> 00:24:03,940
concerns you were raising it concerns is

548
00:24:09,360 --> 00:24:06,060
the right word about the lack of

549
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:09,370
perceived radioactivity in the steam or

550
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:13,090
the water yes like physics degree did

551
00:24:15,420 --> 00:24:14,890
add a little bit of nuclear physics in

552
00:24:18,390 --> 00:24:15,430
it

553
00:24:20,130 --> 00:24:18,400
and but I understand that if a real

554
00:24:22,140 --> 00:24:20,140
nuclear reaction is going on at a high

555
00:24:23,790 --> 00:24:22,150
enough level to produce power then all

556
00:24:25,860 --> 00:24:23,800
of the things around it will show some

557
00:24:27,870 --> 00:24:25,870
evidence of radioactivity afterwards

558
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:27,880
yeah which needs to be guarded against

559
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:29,410
yeah and you've got ways to dispose off

560
00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:32,170
yeah when Ross is running this device he

561
00:24:35,940 --> 00:24:33,730
holds the output hose in his hand

562
00:24:37,710 --> 00:24:35,950
admittedly a gloved hand to protect from

563
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:37,720
the heat and he lets it run down the

564
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:41,530
sink Oh No maybe the Italian authorities

565
00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:44,530
might like to hear about that so that's

566
00:24:49,830 --> 00:24:46,570
not another good indicator that there's

567
00:24:52,590 --> 00:24:49,840
a nuclear reaction going on no no it's

568
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:52,600
not that no I will I hope not in this

569
00:24:56,820 --> 00:24:54,610
case I hope not if it is I hope that

570
00:24:59,760 --> 00:24:56,830
he's doing something better with the

571
00:25:03,420 --> 00:24:59,770
water now okay so you're up there at the

572
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:03,430
meeting and you are able to to tell the

573
00:25:08,310 --> 00:25:05,170
audience and how many people actually

574
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:08,320
came along about 70 wow that's quite a

575
00:25:14,190 --> 00:25:12,010
lot quite alone tell the audience from

576
00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:14,200
your point of view what you thought of

577
00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:17,620
the data so far and the engine and what

578
00:25:23,100 --> 00:25:20,860
have you how was how was the reaction

579
00:25:25,110 --> 00:25:23,110
then apart from the ones who walked out

580
00:25:27,030 --> 00:25:25,120
when you mention the vaccination network

581
00:25:31,410 --> 00:25:27,040
how are the how was the reaction then

582
00:25:35,700 --> 00:25:31,420
from the audience well when the

583
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:35,710
Australian host so tried to shut me up

584
00:25:38,460 --> 00:25:37,330
by saying he thought we'd run out of

585
00:25:40,410 --> 00:25:38,470
time and we should leave room for

586
00:25:41,670 --> 00:25:40,420
questions some money all that let him

587
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:41,680
finish I want to hear what he's got to

588
00:25:48,420 --> 00:25:44,410
say that was a good sign and they did

589
00:25:50,850 --> 00:25:48,430
hear me out to the end but they would

590
00:25:52,260 --> 00:25:50,860
there were quite a few questions the

591
00:25:53,820 --> 00:25:52,270
questions were about a third to do with

592
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:53,830
the science of it and about two-thirds

593
00:25:58,590 --> 00:25:56,050
do with the finance so i guess the

594
00:25:59,730 --> 00:25:58,600
people questioning the science we had

595
00:26:01,110 --> 00:25:59,740
got through to them there's something

596
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:01,120
wrong with the science beautiful

597
00:26:03,930 --> 00:26:02,530
questioning the finance that got over

598
00:26:05,130 --> 00:26:03,940
the science and were more interested in

599
00:26:07,770 --> 00:26:05,140
how the money was going to be

600
00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:07,780
distributed so it's a bit of a mixture

601
00:26:11,510 --> 00:26:09,670
there but i did get a bit of an idea of

602
00:26:14,250 --> 00:26:11,520
the demographic we were dealing with

603
00:26:16,650 --> 00:26:14,260
because i asked them i'd like to do a

604
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:16,660
little survey here if you believe that

605
00:26:19,710 --> 00:26:18,250
the laws of physics as we understand

606
00:26:20,810 --> 00:26:19,720
them are correct can you put your hand

607
00:26:27,049 --> 00:26:20,820
up

608
00:26:28,490 --> 00:26:27,059
and then I said well if and now those

609
00:26:30,289 --> 00:26:28,500
who think the laws of physics as we

610
00:26:31,460 --> 00:26:30,299
understand them are completely wrong put

611
00:26:33,950 --> 00:26:31,470
your hand up and about twenty percent

612
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:33,960
but their hand up good and then someone

613
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:35,610
said look I think I can speak for most

614
00:26:39,350 --> 00:26:37,919
of us here what we believe is the laws

615
00:26:42,169 --> 00:26:39,360
of physics as we understand them might

616
00:26:44,120 --> 00:26:42,179
be might be valid because we see things

617
00:26:45,740 --> 00:26:44,130
around working but they're not complete

618
00:26:50,269 --> 00:26:45,750
there's more things to be discovered

619
00:26:52,100 --> 00:26:50,279
that could explain these things so there

620
00:26:53,899 --> 00:26:52,110
you go that was three that was the

621
00:26:55,940 --> 00:26:53,909
current paradigm which is a little bit

622
00:26:59,299 --> 00:26:55,950
from the heart of Sydney when I give

623
00:27:02,869 --> 00:26:59,309
talks here they very much hard-nosed

624
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:02,879
well it's especially if they've come

625
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:05,600
along to this meeting with the hope of

626
00:27:11,019 --> 00:27:07,980
finding something wonderful to invest

627
00:27:12,980 --> 00:27:11,029
their money in and with a mixture of

628
00:27:14,629 --> 00:27:12,990
motivations I would imagine there would

629
00:27:16,850 --> 00:27:14,639
be some there who had the eye for the

630
00:27:19,159 --> 00:27:16,860
for the investment opportunity to make

631
00:27:22,190 --> 00:27:19,169
money and I'm sure there were plenty of

632
00:27:23,769 --> 00:27:22,200
people there who wanted to invest in

633
00:27:28,269 --> 00:27:23,779
something that they thought could

634
00:27:34,820 --> 00:27:28,279
seriously help our society in our planet

635
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:34,830
yes that threats very much present for

636
00:27:37,850 --> 00:27:36,450
nearly all of the people want to do

637
00:27:39,259 --> 00:27:37,860
something to help save the planet they

638
00:27:42,169 --> 00:27:39,269
fare very much in tune with the earth

639
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:42,179
living among often among the hills along

640
00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:44,730
their mud brick in the mud brick houses

641
00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:46,230
and so forth in their little patch of

642
00:27:51,950 --> 00:27:48,750
rainforest yes so that's a quite

643
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:51,960
positive thing to say well I mean in a

644
00:27:57,649 --> 00:27:53,490
lot of people's hearts are in the right

645
00:28:02,539 --> 00:27:57,659
place which is sometimes why it's hard

646
00:28:05,149 --> 00:28:02,549
for them to hear or accept something

647
00:28:07,639 --> 00:28:05,159
like The Skeptical point of view which

648
00:28:10,820 --> 00:28:07,649
says which would say yes wouldn't it be

649
00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:10,830
wonderful if this was the case however

650
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:14,460
we can look at this in somewhat the cold

651
00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:17,129
hard light of day and find this probably

652
00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:20,370
not cold fusion at all that's right I

653
00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:22,590
would like if we have some overseas

654
00:28:27,230 --> 00:28:24,360
listeners from not in Australia I would

655
00:28:28,909 --> 00:28:27,240
like you to do me a favor perhaps you

656
00:28:31,970 --> 00:28:28,919
could do a little search to find out

657
00:28:33,650 --> 00:28:31,980
whether Rossi's ecat is being promoted

658
00:28:36,290 --> 00:28:33,660
in your own country

659
00:28:37,610 --> 00:28:36,300
and if you find out anything even a

660
00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:37,620
negative result could you let us know

661
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:39,180
perhaps you could send an email to the

662
00:28:46,730 --> 00:28:42,720
Australian skeptics which is NSW at

663
00:28:48,590 --> 00:28:46,740
skeptics with a KOA you that's it folks

664
00:28:51,620 --> 00:28:48,600
if you're wherever you are in the world

665
00:28:54,620 --> 00:28:51,630
have a look around Google away you might

666
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:54,630
have heard something Rossi and the e-cat

667
00:29:00,050 --> 00:28:57,120
energy device is a good energy catalyzed

668
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:00,060
energy catalyzer and you can contact ian

669
00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:01,710
at that address you just mentioned

670
00:29:07,970 --> 00:29:06,270
that's NSW at skeptics calm a you and

671
00:29:10,850 --> 00:29:07,980
let him know if you've discovered

672
00:29:13,010 --> 00:29:10,860
anything if you're interested in a bit

673
00:29:15,290 --> 00:29:13,020
of further information the most

674
00:29:17,180 --> 00:29:15,300
comprehensive website fruit from a

675
00:29:21,650 --> 00:29:17,190
skeptical point of view that I've found

676
00:29:26,510 --> 00:29:21,660
that mentions Rossi's device is ESO

677
00:29:28,760 --> 00:29:26,520
watch ESO wa TCH if you do a little

678
00:29:30,620 --> 00:29:28,770
Google you'll find ESO watch and there's

679
00:29:32,420 --> 00:29:30,630
a they do have many skeptical topics

680
00:29:35,690 --> 00:29:32,430
they investigate including a very long

681
00:29:37,370 --> 00:29:35,700
article unless it's a cat great Willian

682
00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:37,380
this is just one of the long line of

683
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:39,780
energy devices you've been looking into

684
00:29:45,410 --> 00:29:42,690
over something like 30 leading is yes we

685
00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:45,420
remember way back in decades passed over

686
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:48,240
various fuel polarizers there were

687
00:29:53,390 --> 00:29:51,450
various pool cleaning devices that

688
00:29:55,460 --> 00:29:53,400
you've been in looking into and cars

689
00:29:57,320 --> 00:29:55,470
that run it on water and all sorts of in

690
00:29:59,210 --> 00:29:57,330
fact that was brought up at thee nothing

691
00:30:01,870 --> 00:29:59,220
been be meeting was it was it but what

692
00:30:05,780 --> 00:30:01,880
could I tell them about the hydrogen pad

693
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:05,790
care that JBL p peterson was worse of

694
00:30:08,750 --> 00:30:06,960
them a bit about that night old necklace

695
00:30:11,690 --> 00:30:08,760
i think the first article i wrote for

696
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:11,700
the skeptic got here that 1981 and after

697
00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:14,130
all these years is treated over three

698
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:17,090
decades of investigating these things

699
00:30:21,830 --> 00:30:19,530
we've still yet to find the Holy Grail

700
00:30:23,390 --> 00:30:21,840
alone only the bat pot of gold at the

701
00:30:25,460 --> 00:30:23,400
end of the rainbow is very elusive

702
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:25,470
that's right maybe that maybe instead

703
00:30:30,350 --> 00:30:27,330
Sciences as we find it in the world is

704
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:30,360
as it appears to be and the way we need

705
00:30:34,340 --> 00:30:31,890
to save the planet is to use less energy

706
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:34,350
and find renewable energy you've heard

707
00:30:38,150 --> 00:30:36,230
it here first folks ian bryce from

708
00:30:40,460 --> 00:30:38,160
australian skeptics our chief

709
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:40,470
investigator great to have you back on

710
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:42,050
the skeptic zone again and

711
00:30:45,820 --> 00:30:43,970
that will listeners if you know the free

712
00:30:49,390 --> 00:30:45,830
energy device or a wonderful energy

713
00:31:04,330 --> 00:30:49,400
saving device let you know Ian thank you

714
00:31:06,070 --> 00:31:04,340
[\h__\h] Richard this is ben Radford I'm

715
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:06,080
deputy editor of skeptical inquirer

716
00:31:10,420 --> 00:31:07,970
science magazine author of six books

717
00:31:11,950 --> 00:31:10,430
including tracking chupacabra and you

718
00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:11,960
can find out more about me at Benjamin

719
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:19,280
Radford com hi this is Tim Farley you

720
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:21,170
probably know me from what's the harm

721
00:31:26,770 --> 00:31:24,050
net a catalog of the real world harm

722
00:31:29,710 --> 00:31:26,780
caused by lack of critical thinking but

723
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:29,720
that's not my only project i present at

724
00:31:34,990 --> 00:31:32,720
skeptic events I post a daily skeptic

725
00:31:37,810 --> 00:31:35,000
history fact on Twitter and Facebook and

726
00:31:40,930 --> 00:31:37,820
I blog about using new techniques on the

727
00:31:44,110 --> 00:31:40,940
internet to advance skepticism come over

728
00:31:47,530 --> 00:31:44,120
to skip tools com and check out my

729
00:31:56,810 --> 00:31:47,540
latest ideas but first enjoy the rest of

730
00:32:01,290 --> 00:31:59,670
but two more your skipped again it

731
00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:01,300
depends on what what do you we're doing

732
00:32:05,610 --> 00:32:03,700
that but I am and people that talk to

733
00:32:07,350 --> 00:32:05,620
the afterlife and forecast the future

734
00:32:08,970 --> 00:32:07,360
i'm a total skeptic on that kind of

735
00:32:11,010 --> 00:32:08,980
thing what about alternative medicine

736
00:32:12,450 --> 00:32:11,020
sometimes sure they are magnetic

737
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:12,460
mattresses that had me a bit puzzled

738
00:32:16,140 --> 00:32:14,770
edge or well Loretta Marin is the

739
00:32:18,150 --> 00:32:16,150
Australian skeptic of the year for the

740
00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:18,160
second time and she is continuing her

741
00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:20,500
campaign against unproven alternative

742
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:22,570
medicines and practices and she's also

743
00:32:27,510 --> 00:32:24,490
the inaugural chief executive officer of

744
00:32:29,790 --> 00:32:27,520
friends of science in medicine she joins

745
00:32:32,010 --> 00:32:29,800
us now hi Loretta how are you very well

746
00:32:34,290 --> 00:32:32,020
now you've had a long-running battle to

747
00:32:36,330 --> 00:32:34,300
expose for jilat claims and things like

748
00:32:38,220 --> 00:32:36,340
that why did you start your campaign

749
00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,230
against alternative medicines well i

750
00:32:42,750 --> 00:32:40,240
think it was when i was diagnosed with

751
00:32:44,670 --> 00:32:42,760
breast cancer and that was 2003 and

752
00:32:47,700 --> 00:32:44,680
thanks to modern medicine i'm still here

753
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:47,710
and my background is physics and

754
00:32:53,130 --> 00:32:50,290
computers so medicine was never of

755
00:32:54,780 --> 00:32:53,140
interest to me I kept I've always eatin

756
00:32:58,230 --> 00:32:54,790
healthy and being quite athletic and all

757
00:33:00,480 --> 00:32:58,240
the rest of it as most of us are yes and

758
00:33:02,670 --> 00:33:00,490
but once I walk through that cancer door

759
00:33:04,620 --> 00:33:02,680
I went to a whole new world and it was

760
00:33:06,870 --> 00:33:04,630
you know voodoo and witchcraft and

761
00:33:08,910 --> 00:33:06,880
really no sin credibly vulnerable people

762
00:33:10,740 --> 00:33:08,920
I've ever seen just sitting there

763
00:33:13,530 --> 00:33:10,750
perched on their the edges of their

764
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:13,540
chest listening to information that was

765
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:16,690
just so wrong whereabouts was known as

766
00:33:20,670 --> 00:33:19,090
emotions being dished out well the sad

767
00:33:23,190 --> 00:33:20,680
thing is it was at my local breast

768
00:33:24,750 --> 00:33:23,200
cancer support group Rosa and I went

769
00:33:26,610 --> 00:33:24,760
along there to listen to the local

770
00:33:28,980 --> 00:33:26,620
friendly naturopathy for lovely fluffy

771
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:28,990
people right very nice friendly girl and

772
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:31,690
she started and just would not stop

773
00:33:35,910 --> 00:33:33,610
attacking doctors you know thing they're

774
00:33:37,890 --> 00:33:35,920
owned by the drug companies and and she

775
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:37,900
attacked everything you wait you know no

776
00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:40,690
no dairy no alcohol well that was that

777
00:33:45,870 --> 00:33:42,280
was a bit of a tough one don't eat

778
00:33:47,940 --> 00:33:45,880
anything wyd eat everything purple kin

779
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:47,950
food has no nutrition microwave food is

780
00:33:53,370 --> 00:33:50,410
no nutrition just went on and on and on

781
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:53,380
and then she started to sell product she

782
00:33:58,470 --> 00:33:56,530
held up a big container of soy and one

783
00:34:00,840 --> 00:33:58,480
woman now these women have just been

784
00:34:02,430 --> 00:34:00,850
treated for cancer and they're bored and

785
00:34:04,530 --> 00:34:02,440
they've got tubes hanging off them and

786
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:04,540
one woman said oh my oncologist said I

787
00:34:08,220 --> 00:34:06,310
shouldn't be having too much though

788
00:34:10,140 --> 00:34:08,230
because of the type of cancer I him and

789
00:34:13,020 --> 00:34:10,150
he said take any advice from your doctor

790
00:34:14,940 --> 00:34:13,030
with a grain of salt Oh women for years

791
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:14,950
nutrition and they've only done 12 hours

792
00:34:20,430 --> 00:34:17,050
or something like that and I said to her

793
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:20,440
I i mean i was taking notes because one

794
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:22,810
thing I'm being no skeptic is about

795
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:24,370
we're all skeptics but you know I'm not

796
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:25,810
going to get an electrician around

797
00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:27,310
without checking out that he's got some

798
00:34:32,220 --> 00:34:29,860
qualifications oh yeah but people will

799
00:34:34,110 --> 00:34:32,230
turn up to some alternatives clinic and

800
00:34:36,720 --> 00:34:34,120
one guy had a swimming certificate on

801
00:34:37,860 --> 00:34:36,730
the wall I mean it looked impressive but

802
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:37,870
I didn't even notice that and that

803
00:34:41,790 --> 00:34:39,850
someone said just one certificate so we

804
00:34:43,440 --> 00:34:41,800
don't check their qualifications we look

805
00:34:46,740 --> 00:34:43,450
at the front of the shop and we walk in

806
00:34:50,490 --> 00:34:46,750
and yes so go with a cancer sufferer

807
00:34:53,190 --> 00:34:50,500
it's a you're desperate well that's

808
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:53,200
right and as I say with these were in

809
00:34:57,240 --> 00:34:54,850
these ladies invited this girl back

810
00:34:59,040 --> 00:34:57,250
twice so I took all the notes and I went

811
00:35:00,000 --> 00:34:59,050
home and I looked up what she said cuz I

812
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:00,010
thought well this is interesting I

813
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:02,110
didn't know that and I found out pretty

814
00:35:06,660 --> 00:35:04,810
well all of it was wrong and I thought

815
00:35:08,250 --> 00:35:06,670
these women now if you've got cancer the

816
00:35:10,410 --> 00:35:08,260
last thing you want to be doing is going

817
00:35:11,910 --> 00:35:10,420
on a restricted done you should be

818
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:11,920
eating healthy you shouldn't be giving

819
00:35:15,630 --> 00:35:14,050
up all your favorite foods and you're

820
00:35:18,150 --> 00:35:15,640
allowed an occasional glass of wine for

821
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:18,160
medicinal purposes do you think they

822
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:20,800
were giving some of the patients false

823
00:35:26,070 --> 00:35:22,690
hope that if they tried this other thing

824
00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:26,080
nah be cured this particular girl wasn't

825
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:28,000
but I have actually gone to to

826
00:35:31,350 --> 00:35:29,770
practitioners the current affair invited

827
00:35:34,710 --> 00:35:31,360
me to go undercover and I actually

828
00:35:36,990 --> 00:35:34,720
watched I went to makai a woman who was

829
00:35:38,820 --> 00:35:37,000
putting bleach dilute bleach into people

830
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:38,830
thanks telling them that it would cure

831
00:35:43,170 --> 00:35:41,410
they can't say and I mean I came home

832
00:35:46,740 --> 00:35:43,180
because I couldn't say anything because

833
00:35:48,510 --> 00:35:46,750
my job was to actually somehow show it

834
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:48,520
on film you know God you've got the

835
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:51,850
handbag with the camera and came out

836
00:35:55,860 --> 00:35:53,440
with shingles after that but I got home

837
00:35:57,450 --> 00:35:55,870
and I had to ring up my oncologist and

838
00:35:58,560 --> 00:35:57,460
say what do i do and she said report

839
00:36:01,170 --> 00:35:58,570
straight away and they did shut the

840
00:36:04,500 --> 00:36:01,180
woman down and and this woman was you

841
00:36:06,270 --> 00:36:04,510
know this poor patient was dying and i'm

842
00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:06,280
loosing to the practitioner saying oh

843
00:36:09,870 --> 00:36:08,110
yes you can you know it's got really

844
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:09,880
your brain tumor now it's working on

845
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:11,710
your breath to Manaus doing all this and

846
00:36:15,090 --> 00:36:13,330
I'll hair green and the woman saying yes

847
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:15,100
yes I can feel it I can feel it and

848
00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:16,690
paying heaps of money for the service

849
00:36:20,270 --> 00:36:18,510
only three thousand dollars

850
00:36:22,220 --> 00:36:20,280
heavens above now the friends of science

851
00:36:23,630 --> 00:36:22,230
and medicine the skeptic of the year two

852
00:36:25,610 --> 00:36:23,640
years running there and for the second

853
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:25,620
year that you campaigned against a

854
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:27,690
different element of medicine and its

855
00:36:32,830 --> 00:36:29,850
fundamental chiropractors well what

856
00:36:35,330 --> 00:36:32,840
happened is chiropractors are documented

857
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:35,340
15 new south wales websites are you

858
00:36:39,500 --> 00:36:36,810
always do New South Wales because it's

859
00:36:41,870 --> 00:36:39,510
close to Canberra and I think it's close

860
00:36:44,570 --> 00:36:41,880
to the politicians and every single one

861
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:44,580
of them this was only found 51 and every

862
00:36:48,200 --> 00:36:46,170
fifty one of them on the web claimed

863
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:48,210
that chiropractic could be used to treat

864
00:36:53,570 --> 00:36:51,690
ADHD asthma allergies bedwetting colic

865
00:36:55,580 --> 00:36:53,580
in ear infection and some of them even

866
00:36:57,530 --> 00:36:55,590
claimed it was an effective alternative

867
00:36:59,300 --> 00:36:57,540
to vaccination this is just spinal

868
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,310
manipulation and this is what they call

869
00:37:04,850 --> 00:37:01,920
fundamentalist chiropractic and then I

870
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:04,860
documented 30 websites in Victoria they

871
00:37:08,990 --> 00:37:06,930
all said the same and a whole budget can

872
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:09,000
I think in Queensland and they said the

873
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:10,650
same again and I thought why they all

874
00:37:14,810 --> 00:37:13,050
saying this is not bad people and I

875
00:37:17,390 --> 00:37:14,820
realized they were teaching it in the

876
00:37:19,850 --> 00:37:17,400
University and I tracked down to RMIT

877
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:19,860
and they had a pediatric chiropractic

878
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:22,770
clinic and I tracked down one of the

879
00:37:26,780 --> 00:37:24,450
people teaching in it and of course she

880
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:26,790
said she teaches the students 88 how to

881
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:29,910
treat ADHD ethnology bedwetting calling

882
00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:31,530
a fool total nonsense that's

883
00:37:34,730 --> 00:37:33,180
fundamentalist chiropractor that's not

884
00:37:37,670 --> 00:37:34,740
the good guy that looks after your back

885
00:37:39,560 --> 00:37:37,680
he's fine but it's when they go to the

886
00:37:41,540 --> 00:37:39,570
dark side and start to make these claims

887
00:37:43,220 --> 00:37:41,550
on very vulnerable parents you imagine

888
00:37:44,870 --> 00:37:43,230
you've just had a baby you go in there

889
00:37:46,550 --> 00:37:44,880
and he says oh don't vaccinate because

890
00:37:49,250 --> 00:37:46,560
your child's going to get autism and I

891
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:49,260
have its effect of alternatives so I

892
00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:50,850
actually wrote a report to the health

893
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:53,850
minister and that went global that got

894
00:37:57,770 --> 00:37:54,930
mentioned in the British Medical Journal

895
00:38:00,160 --> 00:37:57,780
and I asked them to shut the

896
00:38:02,930 --> 00:38:00,170
chiropractic clinic down and investigate

897
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:02,940
chiropractic in Australia and of course

898
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:05,370
they did nothing they refer it on but

899
00:38:09,110 --> 00:38:07,290
even so at least that way it brought it

900
00:38:10,820 --> 00:38:09,120
out and suddenly pediatricians came out

901
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:10,830
and very good chiropractic came at

902
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:13,530
offering support me which I you know

903
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:14,910
when I got one from a chiropractor lot

904
00:38:19,370 --> 00:38:16,890
always done for is no i said i'll offer

905
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:19,380
you help you said i don't want us to be

906
00:38:23,450 --> 00:38:21,090
seen like this i want us to be seen the

907
00:38:25,610 --> 00:38:23,460
non-surgical back specialist not all

908
00:38:27,740 --> 00:38:25,620
this whoo-whoo stuff and then i found

909
00:38:30,380 --> 00:38:27,750
they were running courses teaching

910
00:38:32,240 --> 00:38:30,390
practicing chiropractors how to enlist

911
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:32,250
local nurses

912
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:34,290
to get most of their businesses to be

913
00:38:40,820 --> 00:38:36,930
children and babies this is manipulating

914
00:38:42,260 --> 00:38:40,830
newborn babies and they run semin these

915
00:38:43,550 --> 00:38:42,270
people the chiropractors are not

916
00:38:45,620 --> 00:38:43,560
vaccinated they don't have to be

917
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:45,630
vaccinated and they would be running

918
00:38:50,810 --> 00:38:48,930
seminars after hours to tell the mothers

919
00:38:52,340 --> 00:38:50,820
and new mums and these poor women are so

920
00:38:53,630 --> 00:38:52,350
precious and their babies are so

921
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:53,640
precious mixing with all these other

922
00:38:58,370 --> 00:38:56,010
babies and we've got rampant whooping

923
00:39:00,860 --> 00:38:58,380
cough my niece's wife just had a baby

924
00:39:02,270 --> 00:39:00,870
she was terrified the first six weeks

925
00:39:04,430 --> 00:39:02,280
her baby would catch whooping cough

926
00:39:07,340 --> 00:39:04,440
because she lives in a low vaccination

927
00:39:09,830 --> 00:39:07,350
area fortunately it didn't both of six

928
00:39:12,710 --> 00:39:09,840
weeks she should have been just enjoying

929
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:12,720
motherhood I can imagine that dying baby

930
00:39:17,150 --> 00:39:14,310
fair don't yes oh I found out the guy

931
00:39:20,030 --> 00:39:17,160
that ran this course he stood down from

932
00:39:21,710 --> 00:39:20,040
RMIT and he moved to Queensland and is

933
00:39:24,050 --> 00:39:21,720
now setting up the central queensland

934
00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:24,060
university course chiropractic under a

935
00:39:29,150 --> 00:39:26,850
Bachelor of Science mind you laughing

936
00:39:31,250 --> 00:39:29,160
this year so I alerted the professor's

937
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:31,260
that this was happening so they then

938
00:39:36,050 --> 00:39:34,530
enlisted 34th their colleagues and wrote

939
00:39:38,780 --> 00:39:36,060
a letter to the central Queensland

940
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:38,790
University asking them to rethink this

941
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:42,570
degree they then realized that 19 of our

942
00:39:48,830 --> 00:39:45,450
39 universities are running courses Kim

943
00:39:50,450 --> 00:39:48,840
to witchcraft voodoo often masquerading

944
00:39:52,610 --> 00:39:50,460
as science there's a lot of money in it

945
00:39:55,750 --> 00:39:52,620
even though I can't understand that this

946
00:39:58,280 --> 00:39:55,760
there's surely these controls that these

947
00:40:00,530 --> 00:39:58,290
charlatans are out there you know trying

948
00:40:03,290 --> 00:40:00,540
to make money out of basically basically

949
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:03,300
nonsense no no control I put it

950
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:05,610
complaint in against a Chinese

951
00:40:09,620 --> 00:40:07,050
practitioner claiming he could cure

952
00:40:11,330 --> 00:40:09,630
cancer on his website without a patient

953
00:40:13,340 --> 00:40:11,340
there's nothing they can do it won't

954
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:13,350
hold up in court so they just said look

955
00:40:17,450 --> 00:40:15,930
just his opinion nothing they can do but

956
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,460
there are no control so the one thing

957
00:40:23,270 --> 00:40:19,920
I've tried to do is ask the TGA to

958
00:40:25,370 --> 00:40:23,280
cancel a devices for example that you go

959
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:25,380
you let you can go to your local natural

960
00:40:30,110 --> 00:40:27,810
therapist for a consultation which you

961
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:30,120
can claim off your health fund the next

962
00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:32,850
thing you'll be on a machine which is a

963
00:40:35,870 --> 00:40:34,320
high-tech wizardry that's going to

964
00:40:37,670 --> 00:40:35,880
diagnose all that ails you your

965
00:40:39,380 --> 00:40:37,680
allergies your nutritional deficiencies

966
00:40:41,330 --> 00:40:39,390
and you'll stagger out the door with all

967
00:40:43,610 --> 00:40:41,340
these bottles of things because that's

968
00:40:45,890 --> 00:40:43,620
what they make their money on filling

969
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:45,900
all the pills and potions and if I say

970
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:48,210
you don't get better straight away they

971
00:40:51,740 --> 00:40:49,920
say look you know come on back so they

972
00:40:53,150 --> 00:40:51,750
people keep coming back for treatments

973
00:40:56,750 --> 00:40:53,160
that don't work spending an awful lot of

974
00:40:58,400 --> 00:40:56,760
money they don't have and they also know

975
00:41:00,800 --> 00:40:58,410
them on a first-name basis I hear them

976
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:00,810
saying old Danny my kinesiologist you

977
00:41:06,050 --> 00:41:03,930
know or store my naturopath well your

978
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:06,060
doctor can't do that the doctors in and

979
00:41:09,290 --> 00:41:07,530
out in six minutes and if they're longer

980
00:41:11,570 --> 00:41:09,300
than that then they're investigated by

981
00:41:13,580 --> 00:41:11,580
Medicare yes I can imagine you probably

982
00:41:15,770 --> 00:41:13,590
tried to be people probably tried to run

983
00:41:17,450 --> 00:41:15,780
you out of town oh well not something I

984
00:41:19,190 --> 00:41:17,460
tried to work from a basis of evidence

985
00:41:21,650 --> 00:41:19,200
so I kept you said to me I went to an

986
00:41:23,540 --> 00:41:21,660
acupuncturist and gone six sessions I

987
00:41:25,010 --> 00:41:23,550
will send you the research so you can

988
00:41:27,350 --> 00:41:25,020
make an informed choice it's not about

989
00:41:28,850 --> 00:41:27,360
what I think even though I do have an

990
00:41:32,720 --> 00:41:28,860
opinion after a couple of drinks offered

991
00:41:34,580 --> 00:41:32,730
and also Loretta I know people who you

992
00:41:36,650 --> 00:41:34,590
know they won't take the kids to the

993
00:41:38,090 --> 00:41:36,660
doctors that you always forever running

994
00:41:40,370 --> 00:41:38,100
to the naturopath there's a good natural

995
00:41:41,720 --> 00:41:40,380
person I think I've been to natural

996
00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:41,730
perhaps so you know I go every now and

997
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:45,090
again but I I sometimes thinks look look

998
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:46,410
if it's a cold and the child's not

999
00:41:50,540 --> 00:41:48,720
getting any better go to the doctor

1000
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:50,550
personal medicine that's right well an

1001
00:41:54,470 --> 00:41:52,290
extra pass can give you good nutritional

1002
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:54,480
advice do they come out of university

1003
00:41:58,010 --> 00:41:56,370
this is what really stuns me there's

1004
00:42:01,430 --> 00:41:58,020
some really great courses that they

1005
00:42:03,170 --> 00:42:01,440
can't in a different subject the store

1006
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:03,180
when they come out the temptation is

1007
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,010
there's not a lot of money and just

1008
00:42:09,830 --> 00:42:07,440
giving advice and these like these

1009
00:42:11,390 --> 00:42:09,840
people that sell these machines they're

1010
00:42:14,750 --> 00:42:11,400
overseas machines so they've got

1011
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:14,760
European Union certificates the TTA the

1012
00:42:17,720 --> 00:42:16,170
Therapeutic Goods Administration is the

1013
00:42:19,580 --> 00:42:17,730
regulator is obliged to take the

1014
00:42:21,230 --> 00:42:19,590
machines so the sponsors of these

1015
00:42:23,240 --> 00:42:21,240
machines will contact the naturopath

1016
00:42:25,340 --> 00:42:23,250
saying look here's a machine for 25,000

1017
00:42:26,990 --> 00:42:25,350
you can get a hundred thousand dollars a

1018
00:42:28,670 --> 00:42:27,000
year or in this machine they'll show

1019
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:28,680
them how and they'll finance the machine

1020
00:42:32,090 --> 00:42:30,450
well if you're a naturopathic and you

1021
00:42:34,310 --> 00:42:32,100
think wow this is all legitimate easy

1022
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:34,320
money yes I will do and how good am I to

1023
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:35,970
my patients that I'm offering them all

1024
00:42:39,980 --> 00:42:37,770
these diagnostics and really all they

1025
00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:39,990
are is high-tech wizardry yeah that's

1026
00:42:42,710 --> 00:42:41,280
not the teeth whitening machines are

1027
00:42:44,990 --> 00:42:42,720
good out there as well isn't it yeah and

1028
00:42:47,150 --> 00:42:45,000
part of my problem is I can't often get

1029
00:42:48,890 --> 00:42:47,160
patients to come forward to have been

1030
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:48,900
treated badly for cancer because they're

1031
00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:52,050
dead you look at Steve Jobs and we'll

1032
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:55,050
CEO he went on homeopathy it didn't kill

1033
00:42:59,330 --> 00:42:57,570
him but he was quite favorable at the

1034
00:42:59,900 --> 00:42:59,340
beginning he was potentially curable he

1035
00:43:01,880 --> 00:42:59,910
had a unique

1036
00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:01,890
can't be cancer but even he admitted

1037
00:43:07,130 --> 00:43:04,890
he'd made a mistake and that's the

1038
00:43:09,109 --> 00:43:07,140
tragedy of it it's bad enough when and

1039
00:43:10,490 --> 00:43:09,119
that's the worst thing if people can be

1040
00:43:12,650 --> 00:43:10,500
saved and they do it I mean one of my

1041
00:43:14,210 --> 00:43:12,660
very good friends this was diagnosed a

1042
00:43:16,370 --> 00:43:14,220
year or two before me so I didn't know

1043
00:43:19,309 --> 00:43:16,380
much of that to cancer went on wheat

1044
00:43:21,260 --> 00:43:19,319
grass this is up the sunshine coast they

1045
00:43:23,390 --> 00:43:21,270
had diagnosed him accidentally with an

1046
00:43:25,849 --> 00:43:23,400
x-ray and it was a tiny lesion about

1047
00:43:28,250 --> 00:43:25,859
size of the five-cent coin and they

1048
00:43:30,289 --> 00:43:28,260
could have cured him no he died because

1049
00:43:32,720 --> 00:43:30,299
he went on the wheatgrass and even all

1050
00:43:34,190 --> 00:43:32,730
the ways tell him he's cured and by then

1051
00:43:37,010 --> 00:43:34,200
I was diagnosed and I thought well

1052
00:43:39,020 --> 00:43:37,020
that's good i don't understand it and of

1053
00:43:41,420 --> 00:43:39,030
course then he died a few months later

1054
00:43:44,450 --> 00:43:41,430
and i just have story after story

1055
00:43:46,250 --> 00:43:44,460
usually from families loved ones saying

1056
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:46,260
you know my sister went and she did this

1057
00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:48,210
and i went along with her and it was

1058
00:43:52,309 --> 00:43:49,890
really cool you know bone start

1059
00:43:53,660 --> 00:43:52,319
dissolving and awful you know sis cancer

1060
00:43:55,339 --> 00:43:53,670
spreads and they still going to the home

1061
00:43:56,990 --> 00:43:55,349
you pack and all them but that was it

1062
00:44:00,260 --> 00:43:57,000
the homeopath told me he could cure me

1063
00:44:03,140 --> 00:44:00,270
this was one algester he could keep that

1064
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:03,150
was undercover again and he could kill

1065
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:04,950
me of cancer with homeopathy we sit you

1066
00:44:09,289 --> 00:44:06,690
know the memory of a flower and some

1067
00:44:12,349 --> 00:44:09,299
other you know and also a cancer cell

1068
00:44:14,299 --> 00:44:12,359
the memory of a cancer cell and so we

1069
00:44:16,430 --> 00:44:14,309
were able to take those product with us

1070
00:44:18,529 --> 00:44:16,440
but this is the guy telling me not to

1071
00:44:19,789 --> 00:44:18,539
have cancer treatment cuz i could

1072
00:44:22,519 --> 00:44:19,799
legitimately say I've being diagnosed

1073
00:44:24,349 --> 00:44:22,529
with breast cancer what can you do for

1074
00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:24,359
me and that's you know because I'm not

1075
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:27,630
very good at line so and that's why they

1076
00:44:31,420 --> 00:44:29,520
like me to go undercover but my cover

1077
00:44:33,650 --> 00:44:31,430
could be blown there I think it might be

1078
00:44:37,430 --> 00:44:33,660
great thanks for talking to talk again

1079
00:44:39,589 --> 00:44:37,440
soon I website at wwlp.com data you

1080
00:44:41,299 --> 00:44:39,599
that's health information one word it

1081
00:44:43,970 --> 00:44:41,309
doesn't sell anything doesn't advertise

1082
00:44:45,710 --> 00:44:43,980
just over 400 very good link so people

1083
00:44:47,180 --> 00:44:45,720
can have a look missing father was the

1084
00:44:48,980 --> 00:44:47,190
two supporters like Professor Ian phrase

1085
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:48,990
or at least 30 order of Australian so

1086
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:50,010
well thanks for talking to us we'll talk

1087
00:44:53,180 --> 00:44:51,510
again soon Loretta good on you thank you

1088
00:45:07,049 --> 00:44:53,190
Liberty Marin there the inaugural chief

1089
00:45:13,059 --> 00:45:10,359
have you heard about QED the exciting

1090
00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:13,069
skeptical conference 10 11 4 March 2012

1091
00:45:17,799 --> 00:45:15,529
quite exciting days you're probably

1092
00:45:19,989 --> 00:45:17,809
wondering why should i go to QED while

1093
00:45:21,789 --> 00:45:19,999
the existential dilemma will have the

1094
00:45:23,439 --> 00:45:21,799
investigator and legend joe nickell

1095
00:45:25,569 --> 00:45:23,449
quite extraordinary detective

1096
00:45:28,179 --> 00:45:25,579
alternative medicine expert Ed's orders

1097
00:45:29,919 --> 00:45:28,189
quacks in Deward difficulties monsters

1098
00:45:32,189 --> 00:45:29,929
werewolves and lucid dreaming from

1099
00:45:34,659 --> 00:45:32,199
Deborah high working eerie demons

1100
00:45:37,299 --> 00:45:34,669
Massimo polidoro head of the

1101
00:45:39,099 --> 00:45:37,309
intelligence questo agrees yogurt or a

1102
00:45:42,009 --> 00:45:39,109
tape it or an eviction conspiracy

1103
00:45:44,559 --> 00:45:42,019
theories ytb doubles secular campaign of

1104
00:45:46,269 --> 00:45:44,569
Miriam namazi well equality detractors

1105
00:45:48,099 --> 00:45:46,279
Sarah angliss will show us how to play

1106
00:45:50,979 --> 00:45:48,109
the Federman with robots withering

1107
00:45:53,259 --> 00:45:50,989
electronic devices ufologist II and red

1108
00:45:55,179 --> 00:45:53,269
path with extraterrestrial details there

1109
00:45:56,919 --> 00:45:55,189
fester Steve Jones and white creationism

1110
00:45:58,689 --> 00:45:56,929
is known to quieten evolution deniers

1111
00:46:00,999 --> 00:45:58,699
podcaster and spoon bender Richard

1112
00:46:03,069 --> 00:46:01,009
Saunders questions ESP demonstrations

1113
00:46:05,409 --> 00:46:03,079
for a filia Benson Queen existentialist

1114
00:46:07,509 --> 00:46:05,419
debater and we'll have comedy from Robin

1115
00:46:09,549 --> 00:46:07,519
Ince and gas quality into tim and

1116
00:46:11,499 --> 00:46:09,559
definitely tickets are 89 pounds and

1117
00:46:15,429 --> 00:46:11,509
they're going fast so re queue everybody

1118
00:46:18,389 --> 00:46:15,439
directly would you cut that out you can

1119
00:46:21,669 --> 00:46:18,399
get your ticket from QED calm dot org

1120
00:46:23,529 --> 00:46:21,679
court events dorm in marsh seriously if

1121
00:46:26,169 --> 00:46:23,539
you don't stop bangin up too quickly end

1122
00:46:43,700 --> 00:46:26,179
discussion comes QED Manchester question

1123
00:46:50,970 --> 00:46:46,410
thank you for listening to this episode

1124
00:46:54,180 --> 00:46:50,980
of the skeptic zone now to whet your

1125
00:46:57,090 --> 00:46:54,190
appetite there are more there has been

1126
00:47:00,450 --> 00:46:57,100
more developments in Ian Bryce's

1127
00:47:03,090 --> 00:47:00,460
investigation into the e-cat cold fusion

1128
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:03,100
type technology it's a little bit under

1129
00:47:09,390 --> 00:47:05,440
wraps now means further investigations

1130
00:47:11,670 --> 00:47:09,400
as soon as we can as soon as we can

1131
00:47:14,030 --> 00:47:11,680
we'll be telling you more about this

1132
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:14,040
fascinating story this interesting

1133
00:47:19,950 --> 00:47:16,930
investigation so look out for that and

1134
00:47:23,610 --> 00:47:19,960
look out for next week's skeptic zone

1135
00:47:26,310 --> 00:47:23,620
where we will be visiting the National

1136
00:47:28,410 --> 00:47:26,320
Center for Science Education which is in

1137
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:28,420
open not far away from where i am at the

1138
00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:30,850
moment and to talk to our dear friend

1139
00:47:36,630 --> 00:47:34,390
dr. Eugenie Scott about her efforts and

1140
00:47:39,870 --> 00:47:36,640
the center's efforts into helping

1141
00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:39,880
preserve science education by fighting

1142
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:43,930
the attempts by creationists to insert

1143
00:47:49,950 --> 00:47:47,170
then drove all into the American school

1144
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:49,960
system can't wait for that going to be

1145
00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:53,170
visiting that Center in a few days well

1146
00:47:58,020 --> 00:47:54,970
I think it's time for another hot

1147
00:48:00,330 --> 00:47:58,030
chocolate yeah why not and thank you

1148
00:48:03,930 --> 00:48:00,340
once again for listening to this week's

1149
00:48:05,730 --> 00:48:03,940
episode of the skeptic zone until next

1150
00:48:08,550 --> 00:48:05,740
week this is Richard Saunders signing

1151
00:48:15,590 --> 00:48:08,560
off looking for my rowboat signing off

1152
00:48:23,010 --> 00:48:18,000
you've been listening to the skeptic

1153
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:23,020
zone visit our website at www skeptics